Scientific illiteracy an international problem

.

For your daily dose of debunking, from Steve Milloy,
visit the Junk Science Home Page.

What is Junk Science?

Special rules for this forum.

Debunkers

The media.

profile | register | preferences | faq | search

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Author	Topic: Scientific illiteracy an international problem
KGB Moderator	posted 12-13-2007 11:08 AM Not that that's really a surprise. IP: Logged
LaneH Member	posted 12-13-2007 02:05 PM That made my brain hurt. But, as you said, it is not surprising. Look at the folx in this country ow willfully deny proven scientific fact. ------------------ lane h. can be reached at laneman@erols.com "Never let your mind remain so open that your brain falls out." IP: Logged
annef Moderator	posted 12-13-2007 03:33 PM It still baffles me how we all managed to bumble through school with multiple recesses, shop and home ec classes, etc. and somehow come out the end with pretty sound knowledge of the basics. I'm old enough to have kids aged 28-39. They also came out the end of the mill with pretty solid educations. Indeed, two math majors and an English whiz challenged our minds. We both needed to learn more in order to help them with homework. By the same token, the three youngest buy into a buncha junk science and health scarism. For example, we have a simply brilliant daughter-in-law who didn't want to fry a steak in a slightly rusty iron skillet. Um, a little bit of oil and a short stint in the oven takes care of that. In addition, it's a source of er, um iron. What's more, neither math major seems to've been exposed to statistics -- or just don't remember anything abt them. Asking them to consider 'p' values, CIs or margins of error draw blank stares. Oddly, both math majors are weak Kool-Aid drinkers, while the other two, w/ far less specialty education are born skeptics. Hey, two outta four ain't bad. Anne IP: Logged
KGB Moderator	posted 12-13-2007 04:01 PM Anne, the answer is that you and I and most of the others here are a few sigma off the mean. In all likelihood, so were the schools we attended, though I don't think that's as important. I would love to see a distribution curve, for once, in discussions of educational outcomes. Knowing the mean is alarmingly low doesn't tell me whether it's an otherwise reasonable distribution with a large low tail contributed by the horrendous schools we seem to tolerate in inner cities. I already know that that large low tail wags our health and crime statistics. Shucks. We have an economist, a physicist, a chemist or two, a gentle archaeologist now specializing in a different kind of dig, and so on. But no education majors. Ya suppose we scare them off? IP: Logged
Frank2941 Member	posted 12-13-2007 11:59 PM KGB You said: "...an economist, a physicist, a chemist or two, a gentle archaeologist now specializing in a different kind of dig, and so on..." What about the engineers? Surely you don't put us in the same category as education majors. IP: Logged
SPQR Moderator	posted 12-14-2007 12:34 AM quote: Originally posted by Frank2941: KGB You said: "...an economist, a physicist, a chemist or two, a gentle archaeologist now specializing in a different kind of dig, and so on..." What about the engineers? Surely you don't put us in the same category as education majors. Yeah, what about the engineers? IP: Logged
KGB Moderator	posted 12-14-2007 12:46 AM I think you fell into the "and so on" category. You're certainly not to be lumped with education majors. No slight intended -- I live comfortably largely because of the work of engineers. ... Though I tend to think of SPQR as a lawyer. Can't blame him if he prefers to be considered an engineer. [This message has been edited by KGB (edited 12-14-2007).] IP: Logged
Laura Tox Member	posted 12-14-2007 08:49 AM What about the toxicologists??? I work in a company full of engineers, but don't want to be lumped in with them OR with the education majors! laura IP: Logged
KGB Moderator	posted 12-14-2007 10:52 AM Let's have a thread where we summarize all our expertise! It is, after all, impressive, and a major reason I keep coming back here. THe Welcome forum seems the right place. I'll go first. IP: Logged
SPQR Moderator	posted 12-14-2007 11:29 AM quote: Originally posted by KGB: ... Though I tend to think of SPQR as a lawyer. Can't blame him if he prefers to be considered an engineer. Well, the software engineering degree and about 15 years of my life just can't be denied. IP: Logged
KGB Moderator	posted 12-14-2007 11:33 AM Fair enough. Don't let my lawyer jokes fool you into thinking that I don't have enormous respect for you or consider you less than a friend. IP: Logged
annef Moderator	posted 12-14-2007 01:01 PM Laura, how nice to hear from you again. Hope you and yours are doing well. I always welcome your contributions. Fer sure -- toxicologists rock. Most understand that people are not large rats, thus raise their eyebrows at putative 'risks' for human based on MTDs. Re topic of mean, most of also went to school when there were practical courses offered that led graduates to apprenticeships (are there still apprentices?) Our oldest is a chef (brilliant) and never did well in academics, though, interestingly enough when he earned a "C" he probably learned more than academic stars but he didn't 'test well.' I adore talking with him. He's a treasure trove of arcane information and has a compass of science and history and current events that amazes me. The current hysteria about inadequate math/sci comprehension may well be misplaced. I tend to find the blue collar 'class' pretty savvy about scientific and political stuff. I just wished they voted. P'haps if voting was conducted on Saturday at convenient locations -- Home Depot, WalMart, grocery stores, etc. Didn't we have a brief discussion recently about SAT scores and/or I.Q.'s?? KGB, I like your idea. Will do this as well. Anne IP: Logged
El Buggo Member	posted 12-17-2007 04:41 PM quote: Originally posted by KGB: Knowing the mean is alarmingly low doesn't tell me whether it's an otherwise reasonable distribution with a large low tail contributed by the horrendous schools we seem to tolerate in inner cities. I'm picking nits here, but I'm not convinced that the inner city schools are the problem. I suspect that the stoopid contigent are largely from higher income classes owing to a lesser need to be careful, skeptical or practical. I find this to be the case in the new neighbourhood that we moved into. The housing is more expensive, the pay rates seem to be higher and they seem to be more willing to believe any and all reports on the idiot box. In our old neighbourhood that was a bit lower in stature and more blue collar seemed much more practical and sensible. This was reflected to large extent in the schools. Far from what would be classified as inner city, but much more working class. I'd agree that this group has a well developed set of BS detectors. I can certainly tell you that after better than 10 years of working for a government agency I trust governments less than I ever have. I'm not keen on lumping government employees in as slackers with bad attitudes, though there's certainly more than a fair share of that. I think most government employees start out pretty bright and generally wanting to do right, but get bogged/beaten down by the political processes. Trust an individual not speaking on government policy terms but never trust a politician/director/management. That's all BS. Oops, major digression, sorry. I think it's all too easy now for people and while they may work hard, they aren't required to think. I also think the internet is probably the worst invention ever. IP: Logged
LaneH Member	posted 12-17-2007 07:55 PM Look at the Huckabees of the world. shudder ------------------ lane h. can be reached at laneman@erols.com "Never let your mind remain so open that your brain falls out." IP: Logged

All times are ET (US)	next newest topic \| next oldest topic
Administrative Options: Close Topic \| Archive/Move \| Delete Topic
	Hop to:

Contact Us | The Debunkers

Personal Safety Notice: The discussions on this site may address activities which are inherently dangerous and other activities which could be dangerous if done improperly. Many opinions may be expressed. All or none may be valid. The management of this board has no way of assuring that any of the opinions expressed are consistent with safe practices. If you choose to follow any of the "guidance" expressed on this site and, as a result, blow three of your fingers off, please let us know about it so we can laugh at your stupidity.

Copyright Restrictions: You should know the drill by now. If you post it here, then you promise that you have the right to do so and pledge to defend and hold harmless this board and the staff which manages daily operations. The staff reserves the right to edit or delete material you submit if, in its judgment, your claim is not reasonable.

For your daily dose of debunking, from Steve Milloy, visit the Junk Science Home Page.	What is Junk Science?
	Special rules for this forum.