posted 05-14-2008 02:50 PM            

It's not that the students are struggling with the material; it's that they're not even bothering to show up for class:

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Aird points to a Catch-22 that he said hinders professors’ ability to help students. Because so many students come from disadvantaged backgrounds and never received a good high school education, they are already behind, he said, and attendance is essential. Norfolk State would appear to endorse this point of view, and official university policy states that a student who doesn’t attend at least 80 percent of class sessions may be failed.

The problem, Aird said, is that very few Norfolk State students meet even that standard. In the classes for which he was criticized by the dean for his grading — classes in which he awarded D’s or F’s to about 90 percent of students — Aird has attendance records indicating that the average student attended class only 66 percent of the time. Based on such a figure, he said, “the expected mean grade would have been an F,” and yet he was denied tenure for giving such grades.

Other professors at Norfolk State, generally requesting anonymity, confirmed that following the 80 percent attendance rule would result frequently in failing a substantial share — in many cases a majority — of their students. Professors said attendance rates are considerably lower than at many institutions — although most institutions serve students with better preparation.

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posted 05-14-2008 07:03 PM            

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Originally posted by KGB:
It's a historically black college that prides itself on extending educational opportunities to poorly prepared students.

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That's fine, but it should mean students who actually give a rat's patoot about their education.

posted 05-14-2008 08:34 PM            

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Originally posted by Sam Mc Kee:
That's fine, but it should mean students who actually give a rat's patoot about their education.

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Agree precisely. I see a place for students who realize their preparation was poor, but are willing to work their tails off to make up for it. I'd hire someone like that in a flash, assuming he wasn't a congenital idiot or something.

But students with the kind of entitlement mentality evident here ... I have no use for.

posted 05-15-2008 06:21 PM            

I don't really know what thread to put THIS in because is defies any point that I call even remotely sane.

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During the trial, which was held in Panama City yesterday and today, Ponce de Leon High School’s principal David Davis admitted under oath that he had banned students from wearing any clothing or symbols supporting equal rights for gay people. Davis also testified that he believed rainbows were “sexually suggestive” and would make students unable to study because they’d be picturing gay sex acts in their mind.

The principal went on to admit that while censoring rainbows and gay pride messages he allowed students to wear other symbols many find controversial, such as the Confederate flag.

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These are the people that some allow to guide/educate their spawn?

'cause, of course, you all know that sex acts in your house are far worse than overt racism.
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lane h. can be reached at laneman@erols.com
"Never let your mind remain so open that your brain falls out."

posted 05-15-2008 08:31 PM            

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Originally posted by Sam Mc Kee:
What about Congress?

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posted 05-15-2008 10:04 PM            

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Originally posted by SPQR:
It was wise of us as a society to put all of our stupidest people into the same profession ... it was just a mistake to make it education.

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Glomming back onto your dealings with getting a 'cert' to teach on a subject you are both knowledgeable and have experience in TEACHING previously. I am going with the **BOGGLE**

We are doomed.

I was listening to an interview with Fareed Zakaria talking about his latest book The Post-American World this afternoon.

Regardless of his politics, he is probably not too far off. I am off to buy it just to see if what he says about education in the US if where ever it is. And, where is the US going in a really globalized trade world.

Yeah, that was not a really good connect, meh.

posted 05-15-2008 10:53 PM            

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Originally posted by SPQR:
Only soaks up 535 of our stupidest ... and while it used to be a harmless place for them - that changed a few decades ago ...

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There's also their staffs and entourage of lobbyists.

posted 05-16-2008 12:40 AM            

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Originally posted by LaneH:
I was listening to an interview with Fareed Zakaria talking about his latest book The Post-American World this afternoon.

Regardless of his politics, he is probably not too far off. I am off to buy it just to see if what he says about education in the US if where ever it is. And, where is the US going in a really globalized trade world.

Yeah, that was not a really good connect, meh.

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However, in general - despite how cynical I am about US education establishment - I take the claims that other countries are ahead of us in education with a huge block of salt. I've heard for decades how India is training more engineers than we are ... and I've had encounters with their engineers that give me little concern that the US will be relegated to selling Indians McDonalds' vegie burgers.

Ditto Japan.

posted 05-16-2008 01:02 AM            

I've met very few Japanese engineers or scientists. In fact, I don't remember meeting a single one at Caltech -- although we had a number of mainland Chinese students. I find this curious.

Generally, though, I agree with your take. My sense is that this country tries to balance the two functions of education -- improving competence and sorting -- moderately well in technical fields. (Don't get me going about the liberal majors.) Whereas in Japan, and, I'm guessing, India, sorting is emphasized at the expense of doing much imparting of competence.

Oh, and my data base for this is very extensive: Conversations with a buddy that was a missionary in Japan, became fairly competent in the language, and got to know a few college students there. He said that they hardly bothered to show for class, because the admittance requirements were so rigorous they already had it made the day they matriculated.

posted 05-16-2008 02:05 AM            

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Originally posted by KGB:
SPQR, I've met a few Indian scientists and engineers, and they've tended to be competent. But they've also tended to have gotten their education here.

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I consulted with a major telecom company on some software systems and they were having much of their software done by Indian contractors using indigenously trained coders. Some astonishingly bad software - real horrors. Consistent with my experiences in the '90's with software from the South Asian continent. In the late '80's I had a lot of interaction with Japanese software developers on some projects I was involved with then, more competent in the basics but mind-numbingly unimaginative.

That was when I learned of Japan's very odd university system.

posted 05-16-2008 04:26 AM            

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Originally posted by KGB:
He said that they hardly bothered to show for class, because the admittance requirements were so rigorous they already had it made the day they matriculated.

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I don't have any experience with Japan, though friends who have lived there suggested the same thing. It also happens here to some extent- Once you gain admittance to a good school, you can slack for the entire time, get the degree, and still be in a strong competitive position for jobs. Thing is, a lot of (don't know %) college students continue with the same habits that got them into the top-tier school in the first place.

posted 05-16-2008 03:36 PM            

I'd never've gotten thru algebra without knowing basic maths. A history class teaches history. Certainly one can conjecture about what might've happened had things gone differently (Turtledove), but history (though written by the victors) is lore... it is what it is.

In elementary school I learned to estimate the results of a series of numbers (rounding up or down). That's one of my more frequently used skills.

Once you get to high school, there's room to put critical thinking into play. But it's impossible to do so in English/creative writing, etc. unless you understand basic grammar structure and concepts such as plot and character development. You need to understand basic averages before you can step up to statistics. The list goes on.

If upper grade instructors have not mastered advanced levels of their subject matter, what will they do when a brilliant student out paces them asking "why?"

posted 05-16-2008 05:48 PM            

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However, in general - despite how cynical I am about US education establishment - I take the claims that other countries are ahead of us in education with a huge block of salt. I've heard for decades how India is training more engineers than we are ... and I've had encounters with their engineers that give me little concern that the US will be relegated to selling Indians McDonalds' vegie burgers.

Ditto Japan.

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Well, I only listened to about 30 minutes of the discussion, but he wasn't arguing the 'brain drain', actually he made the contra-argument. People educated in the US and going back are great for the world economy.

It's in the mail from the joys of amazon/ebay/the tubes that give me stuff at my computer without moving.

I will put a review in the book forum when after it comes and I read it.