posted 08-06-2007 02:40 PM            

quote:

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First, the pit bull is quicker to anger than most dogs, probably due to the breed's unusually high level of the neurotransmitter L-tyrosine.--Source

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I can't find anything about L-tyrosine being linked to aggression.

posted 08-06-2007 03:48 PM            

Other Google hits seem devoted to selling you the stuff as a treatment for depression.

posted 08-06-2007 05:24 PM            

That and the author of the article seemed all to willing to let the owners of bad dogs off the hook and instead blame an entire breed for the actions of bad owners. Very frustrating.

posted 08-06-2007 05:58 PM            

quote:

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quote:First, the pit bull is quicker to anger than most dogs, probably due to the breed's unusually high level of the neurotransmitter L-tyrosine.--Source

I can't find anything about L-tyrosine being linked to aggression.

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I don't believe tyrosine (an amino acid incorporated into proteins) is itself a neurotransmitter. It is, however, a precursor to dopamine and norepinephrine.

Tyrosine's major function,however, is to provide a phosphorylation site in proteins for the kinases to use to control many aspects of metabolism.

posted 08-07-2007 12:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RDoherty:
I don't believe tyrosine (an amino acid incorporated into proteins) is itself a neurotransmitter. It is, however, a precursor to dopamine and norepinephrine.

Tyrosine's major function,however, is to provide a phosphorylation site in proteins for the kinases to use to control many aspects of metabolism.

Bob.

---

So if I'm reading you right, and I admit I'm a complete chemistry ignoramus, the L-Tyrosine comment is Bravo Sierra.

As KGB said, I already sort of knew this, I just wanted somebody who is more familiar with this stuff to tell me what they think. Pit bulls generally have a very pronounced threat display towards humans, but very little threat display towards other dogs. So the author of the article is sort of right, but the way he uses this "fact" is extremely dishonest IMO.

Frankly, I think he is a bigot. If he were born 60 years ago he'd probably be writing articles about the inferiority of the Negro, the Latino and the Oriental.

posted 08-07-2007 12:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve_V:
Pit bulls generally have a very pronounced threat display towards humans, but very little threat display towards other dogs.

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posted 08-07-2007 05:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Casper:
That seems to cover our new pit bull. He plays with the hounds as if he is their age, rough and tumble, never backing down as if he is enjoying it, but completely a puppy around people. The hounds are much different, being anti-animal to the point of no return, and simply ignoring people for the most part.

Which is what they are bred for, herding and hunting. Sounds backwards at first but it makes sense.

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Just a suggestion here Casper, but keep the pit bull seperated from the other dogs when not under supervision (i.e. you guys aren't home). A pit bull may not start a dog fight, but it will finish it, sometimes fatally for the other dog.

That and get a breaking stick. Hopefully you'll never have to use it, but if a fight does break out, this is perhaps the fastest and safest way to get a pit bull to let go of another dog.

While the above sounds kind of scary, the one bright spot is it sounds like your pit bull is young and joined your "pack" last. My pit bull was the last one in and gets along just great with my other dog. So, your pit bull might get along great with your otehr dogs and want to rip apart all others, like mine. Still I do keep my two seperated during the day when I'm not home.

By the way, does your pit bull lay down on its stomach with its forelegs out front, and its back legs stretched out behind it?

posted 08-07-2007 06:14 PM            

Weiner #1 is not particularly yappy for a dachshund. She does, however, raise a racket when the doorbell rings, she goes absolutely bonkers around other dogs, and she will bark at an unfamiliar person. Curiously, if she is allowed to approach an unfamiliar person, she promptly goes submissive and becomes quite friendly.

Weiner #2 is a classically yappy dachshund. She barks at the wind, the rain, or for no discernible reason at all. I can't leave her in the yard because she disturbs the neighbors. She backs up if a stranger approaches and is not inclined to be friendly without a lengthy introduction. Curiously, she is not particularly yappy or hostile towards other dogs. Not like Weiner #1, anyway.

When I let the dogs out of their kennel, Weiner #1 is immediately on my knee begging for love. Weiner #2 scouts out the area, and only then returns to beg me for attention.

Sadly, Weiner #1 assumes that if Weiner #2 is barking, there must be a good reason for it, and she joins in.

posted 08-08-2007 11:50 AM            

Weiner #1 is slowly adjusting to the dog next door. She is fine with Weiner #2. Ironically, we bought Weiner #2 to keep Weiner #1 company when we weren't around, and it appears to have worked.

posted 08-08-2007 11:55 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve_V:
Just a suggestion here Casper, but keep the pit bull seperated from the other dogs when not under supervision (i.e. you guys aren't home). A pit bull may not start a dog fight, but it will finish it, sometimes fatally for the other dog.

That and get a breaking stick. Hopefully you'll never have to use it, but if a fight does break out, this is perhaps the fastest and safest way to get a pit bull to let go of another dog.

While the above sounds kind of scary, the one bright spot is it sounds like your pit bull is young and joined your "pack" last. My pit bull was the last one in and gets along just great with my other dog. So, your pit bull might get along great with your otehr dogs and want to rip apart all others, like mine. Still I do keep my two seperated during the day when I'm not home.

By the way, does your pit bull lay down on its stomach with its forelegs out front, and its back legs stretched out behind it?

---

Excellent suggestion, and yes he will be kenneled. More for his safety than theirs. The female at 35lbs can rip apart a coyote, the male is less aggressive but herds much larger animals with confidence. Plus all dogs seem to like their kennels if they are raised with them, I think it gives them a safe room to go to.

I use a tazer to break dogs. After the first time they learn to react just to the sound. I've only had to use it on a bluue heeler so far, and he instantly became obedient (I would too, lol!). I had shock collars for training but they weren't good quality, and I don't get to hunt them often enough anyway.

posted 08-08-2007 01:13 PM            

quote:

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I use a tazer to break dogs. After the first time they learn to react just to the sound. I've only had to use it on a bluue heeler so far, and he instantly became obedient...

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As a kid my family raised goldens, so I was never inclined to any heavy-handed training. A Taser sounds like overkill even for a heeler. About 8 years ago we got a heeler - my first "cattle dog". For the first year I wanted to get rid of her - she was an unholy terror with the other dogs, had her own ideas about everything, like to nip ankles etc. etc. etc. - I had to throw her down violently and kneel on her chest a few times before she began to respect and listen. Now I wouldn't trade her for her weight in gold. She KNOWS EVERYTHING about where EVERYONE (people, other dogs, cats, horses, cattle) should be and what they should or should not be doing at a given moment, and is quick to communicate her reads. She takes even complicated conversational direction like it was programmed into her, executes the task and looks for more direction. No question in my mind, that dog is smarter than I am - good thing I'm bigger!

posted 08-08-2007 02:25 PM            

quote:

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Every pit bull I've ever met has been sweet and gentle. The stereotype has never met my eye. IMHO they're simply victims of their formidable physical form, that tempts unscrupulous individuals to encourage behavior that is otherwise unnatural for them.

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It is more insidious than that. The media also plays a significant role. When they set their sites on a breed as the new "super predator" the help create the problem. Look at the Doberman Pinscher. The dog was unfairly cast as the SS/Nazi demon dog and from that moment on was considered the super predator for several decades (never mind that the U.S. Marines used the Doberman extensively in the Pacific theater and that the dogs probably saved quite a few Marines). The media promulgated myths about the breed to explain the apparent savagry such as the "swelling brain" theory.

As people read about these super predators the unscrupulous among the population procure these dogs. They either train them to be vicious or engage in irresponsible breeding practices. The breed then enter a fad stage and what is at first just hysterical fear can become a reality. With the Doberman the case is even more sad since there are actually very few fatal attacks attributed to the breed relative to other breeds.

A case where irresponsible owners create a situation with a large number of fatalities can be found with one of my other favorite breeds the rottweiler. Since the 1980's there have been something like 54 fatal dog attacks attributed to the breed. However, the rise in fatalities is highly correlated with the rise in ownership. As the dog is portrayed as the new "super predator" people who want to have a dog to make up for their own short comings gravitate towards the new "super predator". Rottweilers are a strong, large, intelligent, and strongwilled dog. In short, not a dog for the timid, the novice, or the irresponsible. The dogs need an owner who will use strong but honest hand in dealing with the dog. The dog should be well socialized with humans, other animals, and also well trained. Failing that and abusing the animal by leaving it out in the backyard or on a chain to languish without contact with humans or other dogs can create a very dangerous animal. And note, the dangerousness of this dog is a result of the either inept or deliberate mishandling by the owner.

The pit bull has it the worst of all. Not only is the dog strong, intelligent, and often scary looking (muscular body, cropped ears, and brick lick head) they are used in dog fighting. Most people don't understand the animal/human aggression dichotomy and they think if a dog is animal aggressive it is also human aggresisve. And with dog fighting you usually have the more disreputable members of society engaging in it. Add in the media which loves to sensationalize things, distort stories, and promulgate myths (note apparently the pit bull also suffers from the "swelling brain" phenomenon that made the Doberman so vicious decades ago...by the way, not that Dobermans are no longer considered demon dogs...funny that).

The final mix to the whole mess are opportunistic politicians all too often who play on their constituients fears. These politicians don't want to hear the truth or facts or use reason. That doesn't get people worked up and get them to the polls. Take for example the Denver pit bull ban. One claim was made that the pit bull attacks like a shark. In tracking down this supposedly "scientific" claim it was ultimately traced back to a single individual who worked as a animal control officer and the comment was along the lines of, "Pit bulls are like a shark, they just keep coming back."

------------------
Steve
"In a nutshell, he [Steve] is 100% unadulterated evil. I do not believe in a "Satan", but this man is as close to "the real McCoy" as they come."
--Jamey Lee West
steve_v@steveverdon.com
Deinonychus antirrhopus

posted 08-08-2007 02:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve_V:
Look at the Doberman Pinscher.

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I've only met two in my lifetime. One of them tore the pocket on my suit, not because he was vicious, but because he clumsily got a claw caught in the pocket while jumping up on me to greet me. He had never seen me before, but assumed that since I was a human welcomed into the home by its owners, I must be a great guy.

quote:

---

The final mix to the whole mess are opportunistic politicians all too often who play on their constituients fears. These politicians don't want to hear the truth or facts or use reason.

---

Heh. My Congresscritter recently sent me a newsletter on how he was promoting renewable energy. I wrote back and pointed out that renewables would never take up as much slack as he was hoping, and expressing my opinion that any energy plan that didn't mention nuclear power didn't deserve to be taken seriously.

His next missive to me congratulated himself on passing the bill, and promised an immediate, complete, unconditional withdrawal from Iraq.

I added his newsletter address to my spam blocker.

posted 08-08-2007 03:15 PM            

"But it's irrelevant. Your quote is just a fancy way of saying pit bulls are aggressive because it's in their genes. You already know that's B.S."

What is the basis for your statement that it is BS?

If a lot of people breed this dog for an aggressive trait, why is it unreasonable to expect that this trait would be "in their genes" for dogs bred that way?

Does that mean that there are not strains that have not been bred for aggressivess? Of course not. But to suggest that it is BS to feel that some strains of that breed may have intentionally been bred for aggressiveness is also BS.

posted 08-08-2007 03:19 PM            

Our neighbours have a pug, who has been closer to getting shot in the head than he or his owners will ever know. I can't abide an aggressive dog, I don't care how small or innocuous he appears. If he ever follows through and bites me - I don't mind if he does, I have insurance - he's going to get the (last) surprise of his life.

Because, no matter what the breed, no matter what the circumstances - it's the owner that makes the dog. A dog, no matter what the breed, is whelped as a blank canvas as far as being aggressive or dangerous is concerned. Like any pack animal, any dog will learn where he stands in the pecking order, and will stick with that, no matter what. It's all they know to do.

maybe I don't know what I think I know, but I thinbk the idea that dogs can be 'bred' for aggression is B.S. The furthest I would go, based on my own experience, is to agree that some breeds of dog are more-easily trained to be aggressive.

llater,

llamas

------------------
. . . a truly bad and evil man. So bad and evil that he's banned by Kim du Toit.

"All things are ready, if our minds be so."
King Henry V, Act 4, scene 3

posted 08-08-2007 03:38 PM            

quote:

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DOG BITES MAN isn't news, they say, but PIT BULL BITES MAN is. Unfortunately the pit bull, when it attacks, doesn't merely bite man -- or, most horribly, child -- it clamps its powerful jaws down and literally tears its victim apart. ''The injuries these dogs inflict are more serious than other breeds because they go for the deep musculature and don't release; they hold and shake,'' says Sheryl Blair of the Tufts Veterinary School, in North Grafton, Mass., which last year held a symposium entitled Animal Agression: Dog Bites and the Pit Bull Terrier. ''Most breeds do not multiple-bite,'' says Kurt Lapham, a field investigator for the West Coast Regional office of the Humane Society. ''A pit bull attack is like a shark attack: He keeps coming back.'' ''A pit bull,'' says Judge Victor E. Bianchini of San Diego, '' is the closest thing to a wild animal there is in a domesticated dog."

---

This from a site called DogExpert.com. This is actually an older article from Sports Illustrated and the author is a complete idiot, and some of the experts are rather ignorant too.

For example, we have the initial claim is that the American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) will clamp on and hold and shake. Then that is contradicted in that American Pit Bull Terriers will bite many times. Which is it? Bite, hold, and shake, or bite many times? And shaking is not unique to the APBT. Most terrier breeds will shake and any dog can and often will tug when biting hard onto something. And the implication that APBTs bite harder is another popular myth supported by literally zero evidence....and these are veterinarians and somebody from the Humane Society.

And in the paragraph before there is this little gem,

quote:

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Often it is small children who are the victims of unprovoked attacks.

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Really? How did this...person, determine the attacks were all unprovoked? Animals can be provoked into attacking, and not in immediately obvious ways. For example, chaining a dog outside with little or no human contact, starvation, heat, and so forth can all render a normally stable dog unstable. A small child unwatched by a parent then enters into the dog's "territory"--i.e. reach of the chain--and there you go an "unprovoked attack". Never mind that the dog was being inhumanely treated.

quote:

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A fair assessment of a growing problem? Or a bad rap against an animal which has suffered far more at the hands of man than it can possibly repay? It has been estimated that there are half a million pit bull terriers alive in the United States today.

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Uhhmmm, that is probably a woefully low estimate. The APBT is not recognized by the AKC, the largets kennel club in the U.S. hence any estimate is a wild ass guess. The UKC does recognize the breed, but is much smaller. Based on the numbers of dogs that enter the shelter system a half a million is way, way too low. Hence the relative risk associated with bite statistics using the 500,000 number is hugely distorted.

quote:

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''But the hysteria, or concern, is understandable. To the untrained eye -- or even to the trained one, in many instances -- it is virtually impossible to tell a docile pit bull from a mean one. None of them looks like a wimp, and a friendly pit bull jumping up to lick you to death has an eerie resemblance to a pit bull jumping up to rip out your throat. Your best bet is to pass a fast judgment on its owner. Pit bulls do not usually growl before attacking; they seldom bark. The hair on their backs does not stand on end when they are enraged. These are not dogs given to threatening displays. The pit bull, when so trained, is all business, which has made it the dog of choice for drug dealers and street punks around the country. ''People whose insecurities are such that they need macho reinforcement feel a need for this type of animal,'' says Loew of Tufts.

---

F%@k. Look at that.

1. Got the threat display wrong.
2. Pit bull's hair on their back does stand up, I've seen it myself. They just have short hair so it is easy to miss.
3. The barking for a pit bull depends on the circumstance. When my dog sees another through the window it barks,and I mean alot.

And this guy is a vet and a professor at a respectable university.

quote:

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There is also the nettlesome question of punishing innocent, responsible breeders of American Staffordshire terriers and American pit bull terriers for the abuses of irresponsible, often criminal, owners. And finally, the pit bull is not the only aggressive dog on the street. Rottweilers, Dobermans, German shepherds, akitas and chows are all breeds that can be aggressive and that are large enough to inflict severe damage on people and other animals.

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Ahh there it is, the reference to the Doberman again. Nevermind that author Karen Delise looked at several decades of fatal dog attacks, and found that with well over 1 million Dobermans registered with the AKC she could only find 13 dog related fatalities involving Dobermans. This makes the doberman one of the least likely dogs to be involved in a fatalitiy.

Frank,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frank2941:
KGB, you said:

"But it's irrelevant. Your quote is just a fancy way of saying pit bulls are aggressive because it's in their genes. You already know that's B.S."

What is the basis for your statement that it is BS?

If a lot of people breed this dog for an aggressive trait, why is it unreasonable to expect that this trait would be "in their genes" for dogs bred that way?

Does that mean that there are not strains that have not been bred for aggressivess? Of course not. But to suggest that it is BS to feel that some strains of that breed may have intentionally been bred for aggressiveness is also BS.

---

The pit bull is not generally bred for human aggression. Some people do, and it is a problem, but it isn't what one would typically think of as a breed problem since such behavior/breeding does not fit with the breed standard. It is like blaming the poodle for people breeding labrapoodles or cockapoos.

Llamas,

quote:

---

maybe I don't know what I think I know, but I thinbk the idea that dogs can be 'bred' for aggression is B.S.

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Well, aggression can be bred for, IMO. The interesting thing is the dichotomy between animal and human aggression. Still good training/socialization can take a dog that has been bred for guarding/protection and produce a reliable animal. It isn't a simple process, but a complex one. Initially my pit bull was quite dog aggressive (except, oddly enough, with my rott). Now she has learned to curtail that behavior. She has learned that I don't like it and so while she still wants to fight, she doesn't engage in the aggressive behavior nearly as much anymore...still I never take outside off leash. My rottweiler has a strong gaurding instinct. She doesn't like people coming into our yard and makes her displeasure quite apparent. But through training and socialization she has learned that when I tell her to no, she knocks it off. She wont become submissive, but she does calm down. When she sees me interact with the person in a friendly manner she'll become friendly with that person.

------------------
Steve
"In a nutshell, he [Steve] is 100% unadulterated evil. I do not believe in a "Satan", but this man is as close to "the real McCoy" as they come."
--Jamey Lee West
steve_v@steveverdon.com
Deinonychus antirrhopus

posted 08-08-2007 08:54 PM            

You said: "The pit bull is not generally bred for human aggression. Some people do, and it is a problem, but it isn't what one would typically think of as a breed problem since such behavior/breeding does not fit with the breed standard."

Who cares what the "breed standard" is? The breed standard is for people who want to exhibit their dogs at AKC sanctioned dog shows. We are not talking about AKC sanctioned dog shows here. We are talking about the real world which, unfortunately, includes some sickos who intentionally breed their dogs for aggression against people and do not give a good GD about any breed standard.

posted 08-08-2007 09:06 PM            

------------------
lane h. can be reached at laneman@erols.com
"Never let your mind remain so open that your brain falls out."

posted 08-08-2007 10:40 PM            

quote:

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Who cares what the "breed standard" is? The breed standard is for people who want to exhibit their dogs at AKC sanctioned dog shows.

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First off, the AKC does not recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT). The UKC does. Second of all, the breed standard isn't something cast in stone by the AKC, at least for the APBT. Even the breed standard for the UKC doesn't deal with issues of aggression. The issue of aggression was set by the breeders long ago actually, and some of these included what are referred to as "dogmen"--i.e. dog fighters.

The standard was that any dog that exhibited human aggression was considered weak, a bad dog, and was immediately culled from the breeding stock--i.e. killed. You see, during dog fights in the ring would be two handlers--usually not the owners, and a referee. Any dog that showed the slightest sign of attacking a human would mean these people were are risk so such dogs were not tolerated...the first and probably last zero tolerance policy.

So for over 100 years and probably a few thousand generations (and maybe even longer if you go back towards bull and bear baiting days) you had a very strong selective pressure for dog aggression and against human aggression. This is the breed standard. And sound/well bred pit bulldog should exhibit this kind of behavior. And while the level of dog aggression can very, the level of human aggression is typically very, very low.

quote:

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We are not talking about AKC sanctioned dog shows here.

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No, indeed we are not. Although I might add the American Pit Bull Terriers have done exceedingly well in working dog competitions. You can the APBT doing everything from herding, to tracking, SAR, and therapy work. They are an amazingly versatile dog, when produced by responsible breeders and owned by responsible owners...but then this is true for any dog irrespective of size, breed, etc.

quote:

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We are talking about the real world which, unfortunately, includes some sickos who intentionally breed their dogs for aggression against people and do not give a good GD about any breed standard.

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Yes I know, I said as much when I wrote,

quote:

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The pit bull is not generally bred for human aggression. Some people do, and it is a problem...

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You seem to have missed that part of my response to you. And my point about cockapoos is that to get a pit bull that is human aggressive you have to cross it with dogs that are human aggressive like the mastiff breeds or maybe the presa canario. These are dogs that have not undergone the same breeding to diminish the human aggression and it also results in a bigger dog which many of the "sickos" you refer to prefer, but ironically is not favored by dog fighters. Your typical fighting APBT will come in around 40 to 50 pounds will be very agile, will not have a huge head, will have a deep chest and be somewhat rangy in the legs and neck. The lighter weights means that the dog will be more agile. Too big of head adds nothing to the dog's fighting ability and may push it into a heavier weight class--i.e. it is a detriment. A broad, but shallow, chested dog will lack in terms of endurance, one source likened it to having and air pump with a short stroke. This is why a 50 pound APBT will take down a 120 pound rottweiler with little or no trouble. A wolf, coyote or other animal wouldn't want to mess with an APBT because the dog would be more than a match for such and animal, maybe even several. In fact, there are stories from the late 1800's to the early 1900's where the family pit bull on a farm has saved family members from an enraged bull. Usually by charging right into the thick of things, clamping on the bull's snout and simply not letting go till the bull is exhausted. Interestingly enough during this time in this country the demon dog were the blood hound and the Newfoundland.

In any event Frank, while there is some merit to your comments it does not in anyway take away from the fact that in general there is nothing wrong with the breed. There is plenty wrong with some of the people that own them and many of the breeders. In short, whenever there is a problem breed, it is really the same old problem just hiding behind the dogs: humans.

------------------
Steve
"In a nutshell, he [Steve] is 100% unadulterated evil. I do not believe in a "Satan", but this man is as close to "the real McCoy" as they come."
--Jamey Lee West
steve_v@steveverdon.com
Deinonychus antirrhopus

posted 08-09-2007 09:58 AM            

"A dog, no matter what the breed, is whelped as a blank canvas"

posted 08-11-2007 08:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by llamas:
...A dog, no matter what the breed, is whelped as a blank canvas as far as being aggressive or dangerous is concerned...

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Is there any evidence for (or, for that matter, against) that statement? You are implying that while body size, coloring, facial features, and the whole gamut of other characters that dogs are bred for are obviously inheritable and therefore under genetic control, "personality", or whatever passes for it in dogs, is not. I suppose part of the problem is that while physical characters are easy to measure, "aggressiveness" is not.

I do find it a little ironic that some of the same people who believe that human children are "blank slates" and have infinitely mallable personalities seem to think that pit bull puppies are "inherently" agressive. I admit to knowing next to nothing about dogs or children but still suspect that the true nature-nuture balance is somewhere in between in both cases.

posted 08-11-2007 08:27 PM            

A very good point about llamas' "blank canvas" statement.

I look forward to reading llamas' justification for that statement.

posted 08-13-2007 01:35 PM            

And I was perhaps not-as-clear as I might have been – quelle surprise.

I think I made it pretty clear that this is just my opinion, based on my own experience with not-a-few dogs, including 7 successive Doberman Pinschers. We make our Dobermans so that this is their default mode:

(insert sound of gentle snoring, here)

My personal opinion regarding dogs and aggression is this:

Dogs are wolves. And all dogs, like all wolves, are born with more-or-less the same degree of innate aggression, to other dogs and to other species. All puppies will bite and nip, all puppies will charge and jump and exhibit aggression, to their mother, to their littermates, and to anything else that comes around. The breed matters little – if at all. They’re all wolves.

What makes the difference is how well, or how ill, those innate traits of aggression are moderated by training. Dogs are peculiarly-susceptible to simple techniques of operant conditioning, which are known to any dog trainer. I believe that this is a result of an innate tendency to pack-moderated behaviour – you do, what the lead dog tells you to do. Almost any dog can be trained in less than a day to do virtually anything (that it is physically capable of doing) on command and without tangible reward. All you have to know is how to push its buttons. Reggie knows to bark when the driveway alarm goes off but ONLY if the vehicle is in-bound. He was taught this in a day, several years ago, and he will never stop doing it. That’s just how dogs are.

Some of the nastiest, most-aggressive and generally-unpleasant dogs I have met have been of breeds which ‘everyone knows’ have been bred to be gentle, docile and ‘good companions’. Generally-speaking, the best-behaved, least-aggressive dogs I have known have been of breeds which ‘everyone knows’ have been bred to be aggressive – such as the 7-Dobermans-in-a-row, several Rottweilers, and several bull terriers of the various flavours.

We’ve all laughed about the stereotypical lap- dog – we’ve all met the Yorkie or the Pomeranian that will bark its head off and offer to bite anyone but its owner. Like so many stereotypes, we laugh because it’s funny & we laugh because it’s true. But that’s a perfect example – the dog which has been trained to respect only its owner, because it has never been affirmatively trained not to be aggressive to anyone else. Aggression has nothing to do with size or build – that Chihuahua still thinks it’s a wolf.

These are just my observations. As I said, maybe I don’t know, what I think I know. But I’m of the opinion that it’s not positive conditioning which counts with dogs – teaching them how to behave – but negative conditioning – teaching them how not to behave. When I said ‘blank canvas’, that was perhaps an ill-chosen expression – what I should have said was that all dogs, of all breeds, are whelped pretty-much the same when it comes to aggressive tendencies, and that (IMNSVHO) that 99.44% of dog behaviour is nurture and not nature – but nurture in the sense of training out (or not) the existing predispositions, which may very-well be entirely genetic.

There. Discuss.

llater,

llamas

------------------
. . . a truly bad and evil man. So bad and evil that he's banned by Kim du Toit.

"All things are ready, if our minds be so."
King Henry V, Act 4, scene 3

posted 08-13-2007 01:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by llamas:
that Chihuahua still thinks it�s a wolf.

---

And my wieners. As I've commented before, they exhibit no awareness of their own smallness. Their reasoning seems to be "It's a wolf. I'm a wolf. Therefore, we are the same size." Which is a problem when the other wolf is a German Shepherd whose training has not overcome its instinctive dislike of being nipped by something the size of a large rat.

posted 08-13-2007 03:38 PM            

BTW, my pit puppy just showed his hackles. I thought about this thread when I saw it.

posted 08-13-2007 03:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KGB:
I pretty much have to drag my dogs off the trail when I see folks with their own dogs coming the other way. I know how to reward correct behavior, but since they've never engaged in correct behavior around strange dogs, I could use tips on how to punish incorrect behavior.

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I had to resort to the spiked training choker chains. Not so much out of aggressiveness but because my sons raised them with the idea that they would make excelent draft animals to pull a skateboarder or rollerblader. They do, but unlearning this isn't going to happen completely.

posted 08-13-2007 04:00 PM            

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Dogs are wolves. And all dogs, like all wolves, are born with more-or-less the same degree of innate aggression, to other dogs and to other species. All puppies will bite and nip, all puppies will charge and jump and exhibit aggression, to their mother, to their littermates, and to anything else that comes around. The breed matters little – if at all. They’re all wolves.

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To lend some support to this assertion, I believe recently dogs were reclassified from Canis familiaris to Canis lupus farmiliaris.

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What makes the difference is how well, or how ill, those innate traits of aggression are moderated by training. Dogs are peculiarly-susceptible to simple techniques of operant conditioning, which are known to any dog trainer.

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The only thing I'd add is that age is also a factor. A dog under 1 year of age is particularly maleable, whereas an older dog will have some behaviors that are harder to change.

Also, I'd say the above is true in general, but that there can be extremes in all dog breeds. You can have an APBT that is very friendly to any and all animals. Then you can have an APBT that is simply never to be allowed near other animals. However, once again, these are extremes and should not be taken to be indicative of the breed in general.

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We’ve all laughed about the stereotypical lap- dog – we’ve all met the Yorkie or the Pomeranian that will bark its head off and offer to bite anyone but its owner.

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Until that pomeranian kills. And this incident shows two important points:

1. That any dog, given the right circumstances, can be aggressive and bite and cause a fatality.
2. Never, ever, leave a young child unattended with a dog. Ever.

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Aggression has nothing to do with size or build – that Chihuahua still thinks it’s a wolf.

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Actually Chihuahua's are noted for being both animal and human aggressive. I've had several incidents where a Chihuahua has charged either my Rottweiler or my APBT.

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These are just my observations. As I said, maybe I don’t know, what I think I know. But I’m of the opinion that it’s not positive conditioning which counts with dogs – teaching them how to behave – but negative conditioning – teaching them how not to behave. When I said ‘blank canvas’, that was perhaps an ill-chosen expression – what I should have said was that all dogs, of all breeds, are whelped pretty-much the same when it comes to aggressive tendencies, and that (IMNSVHO) that 99.44% of dog behaviour is nurture and not nature – but nurture in the sense of training out (or not) the existing predispositions, which may very-well be entirely genetic.

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I disagree. Using the APBT as the example, this dog was breed for tenacity and strength. These dogs simply wont quit even when dying. This tenacity, or gameness, is indicative of the breed. That is, it is rare to find a dog that does not exhibit this behavior trait. This trait isn't something one has to teach the dog; it comes "pre-packaged" with the dog. Consider the initial purpose of the APBT's forefathers: butcher's dog. You needed a strong, agile, and tenacious animal to help control the animal about to be butchers. This was the trait that was breed for.

posted 08-13-2007 04:11 PM            

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Originally posted by Casper:
I had to resort to the spiked training choker chains. Not so much out of aggressiveness but because my sons raised them with the idea that they would make excelent draft animals to pull a skateboarder or rollerblader. They do, but unlearning this isn't going to happen completely.

They leash walk well, but if I spot a cause for concern I make them sit until the concern is over. Then they get a treat. I couldn't do it without the spikes.

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I too use a prong collar on both my dogs since they are both big and strong dogs, especially when I walk both at the same time. I've found that I can get them to behave with far less effort than with other types of collars. The prongs on a prong collar lets the dog know immediately that they are not to tug, pull, etc. And lifting straight up with the leash will help induce them to sit if they are distracted or being stubborn.

Having your dogs sit and then giving them a treat if they do is a good way to get the dogs to grasp what is rewarding behavior and what is not. Even affection can be the reward. But it is important not to reward, even with affection, incorrect behavior.

If you know somebody with a dog who wouldn't mind helping you, you could speed up the learning process. Have them walk around the block opposite to you and your dogs. Whenever you pass, have your dogs sit until the other dog passes. If one or both sit quietly, then reward that dog or both of them.

posted 08-13-2007 04:50 PM            

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Originally posted by Steve_V:
If you know somebody with a dog who wouldn't mind helping you, you could speed up the learning process. Have them walk around the block opposite to you and your dogs. Whenever you pass, have your dogs sit until the other dog passes. If one or both sit quietly, then reward that dog or both of them.

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We have lots of neighborhood dogs and neighbors who pass by. In fact the neighbor who recommended the collar and technique is a K9 trainer of some sort for area LE agencies.

She rescued the massive heeler that I had to use the tazer on (it was previously noisemaker only, my dogs aren't that wild). He went from neighborhood prowler to the most awesome behaved dog you ever saw. She says he was probably a yard dog that finally got loose and all he needed was a sense of pack to bond with. And I'm impressed, she has birds, cats and other dogs all under the same roof. I guess some people just have a knack.

Any thoughts on the coyote vs wolf question? I've always wondered if I could get a cheap DNA test done that would tell me what the %coyote DNA was, but I don't know if anything is available and reliable.

posted 08-13-2007 05:28 PM            

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Originally posted by Casper:
... she has birds, cats and other dogs all under the same roof. I guess some people just have a knack ...

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I have birds, cats and dogs. Had bunny, too, she passed to the great beyond.

It's really not that difficult.

posted 08-13-2007 06:45 PM            

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Originally posted by KGB:
I'm looking into a prong collar. Thanks for the suggestion, all.

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Just remember, a hard jerk can be pretty damaging. They'll get the hang of it on their own. And try not to slip it over the head, unhook a prong and wrap it around the neck and reattach. And get one size larger than you think you need, you can always take a link or two out.

posted 08-13-2007 06:51 PM            

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Actually Chihuahua's are noted for being both animal and human aggressive. I've had several incidents where a Chihuahua has charged either my Rottweiler or my APBT.

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More evidence for my anti-chihuahua jihad.

posted 08-13-2007 09:56 PM            

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Originally posted by 10SNE1:
If you want, I'll try to find the mfr?

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